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Reality Shack > PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD > Flight 587


Title: Flight 587
Description: open case


ATTC - October 8, 2010 10:34 PM (GMT)
American Airlines Flight 587, an Airbus A300, crashed into the Belle Harbor neighborhood of Queens; a borough of New York City in New York, shortly after takeoff from John F. Kennedy International Airport on November 12, 2001. This is the second deadliest U.S. aviation accident to date, after American Airlines Flight 191.

The accident took place two months after the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center in Manhattan. Several factors, such as the date, aircraft size, airline, and location in New York, raised concerns that the crash was caused by another terrorist attack.[1]


We always ask "where were the real passengers? Aside from theories like a tone of them were fake names, some of them had to be real. Could it be this simple? Were the real ones killed in this accident that perhaps also included fake names?

How much do we know about the victims of Flight 587. Obviously not a lot of coverage about that like there was on 9/11. Maybe there should be more scrutiny.

fred - October 8, 2010 10:39 PM (GMT)
I found it amazing that they instantly concluded that "terrorism" was not to blame (within hours.) How could they be so sure so quickly?

idschmyd - October 8, 2010 10:51 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (fred @ Oct 8 2010, 11:39 PM)
I found it amazing that they instantly concluded that "terrorism" was not to blame (within hours.)  How could they be so sure so quickly?

They didn't do it!!

No, that joke doesn't work. After a ten minute scan about I'm far from sure that 'they' didn't do it...

brianv - October 8, 2010 11:11 PM (GMT)
I made a very amateurish attempt at looking into to it a few years ago on another forum. There are some images missing of the flight data etc....

http://letsrollforums.com/american-flight-...rash-t4964.html

idschmyd - October 8, 2010 11:35 PM (GMT)
user posted image

Image from http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/aa587/photo.shtml

Very blocky and Shoppy, no?
Time and patience disallow a full breakdown, but is that guy doing an Irish jig?

user posted image
Star Trek Voyager character?

Another savagely blocky and blurry pic, with ghostly image in the hedge.

simonshack - October 8, 2010 11:41 PM (GMT)
And the History Channnel has the story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5beNH9EKnps

I really have no words. This all sounds so contrived - I cringe when I see these History channel 'reconstructions' - loaded with CGI imagery. But what do I know about Flight 587? Virtually nothing, I'm afraid.

However, it appears that THE ONLY ON-SITE IMAGES OF THE DISASTER the History channel proposes (at 0:12sec in the above documentary and once again at 7:36) last for a few seconds only. Why do they not show MORE footage of the real events on the ground?


And here's more docu material about Flight 587:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMG0Eitq-3Q

guivre - October 9, 2010 12:51 AM (GMT)
One of the big Q's about that crash was how the passenger list looked like a 'Dominican telephone book.' Probably quite a lot of non-passengers in there.


Official list

idschmyd - October 9, 2010 02:22 AM (GMT)
After an hour or three browsing, finally find a vic pic. On a more respectful note, not posting the image directly just in case. Note the familiar and peculiar practise of taking framed portrait to memorial service.

http://www.rockawave.com/news/2005-12-02/Community/054.html.

No indication of the framed man's name.

Article states Kriendler and Kriendler are handling the compensation cases.

http://www.kreindler.com/ '...has joined forces with some... law firms...on the Gulf Coast to represent the interests of clients... from the B.P. Deepwater Horizon Oil Disaster.'

Why such paucity of victim information? Big case, lots to see lots to do...

hoi.polloi - October 9, 2010 03:39 AM (GMT)
:lol:

I see.

So the "victims of 9/11" that likely didn't exist are being transfered to other disasters because 9/11 failed so miserably to convince?

Let's propose that the "victims of 9/11" were all sent on a rocket to the sun while we're at it.

This Flight 587 should be treated as a separate case from 9/11 and not get any attempts to tie it to 9/11 for no particular reason.

I value far-thinking speculation, but this seems a rather ridiculous way of "vicsim-hugging" here.

idschmyd - October 9, 2010 01:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (hoi.polloi @ Oct 9 2010, 04:39 AM)
:lol:

I see.

So the "victims of 9/11" that likely didn't exist are being transfered to other disasters because 9/11 failed so miserably to convince?

Let's propose that the "victims of 9/11" were all sent on a rocket to the sun while we're at it.

This Flight 587 should be treated as a separate case from 9/11 and not get any attempts to tie it to 9/11 for no particular reason.

I value far-thinking speculation, but this seems a rather ridiculous way of "vicsim-hugging" here.

I ain't huggin nuttin, and don't understand the 'rocket' comment.

Links between the 2 cases aren't exhaustive, but include Big Media, New York, aviation disaster, documentaries taking the chance to pump out 9/11 imagery and affirmations, poor imagery flashed by as though it's not meant to be scrutinised, limited number of interviewees in documentary, The History Channel(!), early days conspiracy theories about what witnesses saw ocurring in the sky (but it was a plane, they tell you!), and more. Nothing super-convincing, but at this stage, I rule nothing out.

As Brianv previously found, no flight data exists for 587 out of JFK for the year 2001,

http://www.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarystatis...aryDataDisp.xml

Info exists for all other flights I checked, including UA93 Sept 2000 to Sept 2001 and AA1624 30th Sept to Oct 8th 2009, randomly selected.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmVUok05E4
At 7:53 Narrator intros footage from ‘amateur cameraman’ . Ensues poor quality, fast cutting clips from multiple positions.
8:05 colour balance change for oddly isolated fire.
8:15 man in cap becomes headless and opaque.
8:31 man at one with tree.
Are all these disjointed and fleeting scenes by the same cameraman? Why close ups of fire burning? “Why do they not show MORE footage of the real events on the ground”, and why not slow it down to give us a good view? Suspect, that’s what it is.

Also accept Brianv's observation of the unlikelihood of a third aviation disaster in NY in a month, and right after 9/11, but did I mention not ruling anything out?

Here's the Wiki shot of the zone, pic courtesy of National Oceanic and Atmospheric Admin.
user posted image

The case was a sure disaster for modern photgraphy and data transfer. Queens is apparently much populated by services, firefighters and the like. Does this mean there's lots of government contract housing? Does this mean 'they' would have been able to torch an empty government complex?

Case open, or at least ajar, i say.







idschmyd - October 9, 2010 05:20 PM (GMT)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmVUok05E4

At 6:10 we hear from Deputy Fire Chief Pete Hayden, instrumental in production of the 9/11 fictional narrative, working closely with Jo Pfeiffer. 12th Nov was veterans day, public holiday, and Hayden had just popped out to walk the dog: he hears the aircraft overhead making a ‘straining’ noise, and witnesses it break apart and crash. “There are bodies everywhere, all over the streets, in yards, some victims still strapped into the seats.”

user posted image
Trustworthy testimony?

simonshack - October 9, 2010 05:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (idschmyd @ Oct 9 2010, 01:05 PM)

Case open, or at least ajar, i say.

It certainly is open, Idschmyd.

I've taken a brief, cursory look at this affair. These are just a few notes I am scribbling down here - not nurturing any particular theory at this time - no worries, folks! Anyhow, so far I have learned that:

This young fellow with the punky hairstyle is, practically, blamed for the 587 disaster:
user posted image
First Officer Sten P. Molin - age 34 https://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/GoneWes.../bydate.asp#587
Edward A. States was the Flight Captain:
user posted image
(Neither of the two are listed in the SSDI: http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi (please double-check it for yourself)

As the story goes, Mr. Molin apparently yanked the Airbus commands too brusquely while trying to avoid the wake turbulence of a preceding Jumbo, thus causing the vertical stabilizer to neatly snap off from the fuselage. Here's the offending aircraft part fished up from the waters of Jamaica bay - about a mile from the crash site:

user posted image
I would ask any experts if such a breakage has ever occured in aviation history. Anyone?

A look at the passenger manifest reveals it was an almost exclusively hispanic lot of travellers. Of the 251 passengers, a mere 18 had non-latino/hispanic sounding names. Those 18 passengers are listed below:

QUOTE


NON-Hispanic-sounding passenger names :


DENNIS BLAIR            UNITED STATES
GENIMIZ CARTY          UNITED STATES
DAVID (CHING)CHEN  TAIWAN
MIGUELINA  FABRE      UNITED STATES
MARRA FILANOVSKY    UNITED STATES
ILYA FILANOVSKY       UNITED STATES
SYLVIE  GRELEAU        GREAT BRITAIN
MARION HARTIGAN     UNITED STATES
JEAN HEUZE                FRANCE
MELVIN LANDSMAN      UNITED STATES
ELAINE LANDSMAN      UNITED STATES
ASHOT MELIKJANIAN    UNITED STATES
ANGEL PARADIS B)      UNITED STATES
JEAN PHANORD            HAITI
ELEUTERIA REID-HAY   UNITED STATES
PO TSENG                   TAIWAN
ILAN VASERMAN          ISRAEL
KATHLEEN WILLIAMS    UNITED STATES

http://www2.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories...001615907&EDATE


I must say that the few, blurry available frames of "amateur video" of the event (at 7:53 in video pointed out by Idschmyd) are most reminiscent of the horrid Camera Planet animations of 9/11 - and that the eyewitness seen in this video at 8:35 is possibly more hilarious than all the 9/11 eyewitnesses put together! :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmVUok05E4

That's all for now.

idschmyd - October 9, 2010 06:34 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (simonshack @ Oct 9 2010, 06:40 PM)
the  eyewitness seen in this video at 8:35 is possibly more hilarious than all the 9/11 eyewitnesses put together!  :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmVUok05E4


Well, 9/11 hits hard in the Witness Hilarity dept, but that guy's a card! Very hard to see exactly what's going on around him, or to know who filmed it. Was it the amateur cameraman mentioned ealier - seems to be the same rubbishy camera.

Just about all pics in this story are familiar quality.

user posted image

This from the BBC from AP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1656408.stm

Article titled 'US aircrash victims favoured', which should have made this one a bargain.

The SSDI records are as for 9/11; terrible, laid out by Brianv here: http://letsrollforums.com/american-flight-...rash-t4964.html

Ongoing.





simonshack - October 10, 2010 12:48 AM (GMT)
*

Giuliani gets casualty figure wrong

Here's part 2 of that History Channel documentary :
Flight AA587 (Plane Crash In Queens) - 2/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbSzsXuVQ2E

At 3:05 in this video, Giuliani states :
"As the governor said, there were 255 people and crew members that were listed on the manifest..."

The documentary unfolds in pure 9/11 propaganda style - mixing seemingly "real news reports" with seemingly "candid reconstructions" in a hypnotic manner which blurs any casual viewer's distinction between fact and fiction. But let's leave aside those aspects for now and just point out the following fact:

The Flight587 disaster allegedly claimed 265 fatalities: 251 people + 9 crew members + 5 fatalities on the ground. Giuliani reported in his press conference a flight manifest figure of "255" instead of 260. This little 'mistake' is not as little and innocuous as it may sound: In the months following 9/11, it would seem wildly improbable that American Airlines didn't keep infallible records of the passengers boarding their flights. Not? <_<

hoi.polloi - October 10, 2010 02:27 AM (GMT)
Not you, idschmyd.

I was referring to ATTC's comment (my bolds)

QUOTE
Were the real ones killed in this accident that perhaps also included fake names?

idschmyd - October 10, 2010 02:42 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (hoi.polloi @ Oct 10 2010, 03:27 AM)
Not you, idschmyd.

I was referring to ATTC's comment (my bolds)

QUOTE
Were the real ones killed in this accident that perhaps also included fake names?

Fuck my! I've been on my hobby horse about that. Perhaps I should read all comments more carefully. Thanks for saying.


I suppose EXIF data doesn’t exist for non digital shots, but just in case, can someone with the time and apparatus do an EXIF check on this 1988 shot, please?

http://billvalentine.net/images/billvalent-210-Joe_aa_bw.jpg

And perhaps also on these two

http://billvalentine.net/images/billvalent...at_lake_200.jpg
http://billvalentine.net/images/billvalent...pumpkin_pat.jpg



idschmyd - October 10, 2010 03:07 AM (GMT)
Simon, regards the horizontal tail fin sheering off, you ask if such a breakage has ever occurred in aviation history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5beNH9EKnps

At 7:48 in this vid, Robert Benzon, NTSB investigator, says "This type of accident has never happened before, hasn't happened since the accident, and we would hope it would never happen again."

Just before that, narrator says "As of 2006, Airbus has yet to modify its A300 600." It was not ordered to do so by the investigators, but suggestions were made.


Looks remarkably well considering its final decent, doesn't it?

user posted image

idschmyd - October 10, 2010 01:57 PM (GMT)
Correction: Im my prevous, for 'horizontal' read 'vertical'. Doah!

Another Gay Character from the 9/11 Crew?

user posted image

Bill Valentine is the name accredited with book ‘A Season of Grief’. Website here. http://billvalentine.net/ He’s the Shoppy partner of phantom flight AA587 attendant Joe Lopes. (NB the flight doesn't exist in take-off record). Here’s one bad artistic impression of the couple together.

user posted image
For example, note the guy behind the protagonists and to the left of the pic, with the US flag encroaching in his head.

The other pics are here. I challenge anyone to declare that any of these is a genuine photograph, and to explain the anomalies that will be pointed out in such case.

user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image

Wondering if the creators of this kind of rubbishy supporting evidence make low quality their key signature to avoid wasting each other’s time when they’re on the receiving end of it. I mean, who among intel gathering services would waste time on this?

But why fake AA587? What’s the point? Who gained? Perhaps the answer’s in the money. Dinner to cook…

SimonJCP - October 10, 2010 10:17 PM (GMT)
VICTIM'S LIST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/15/airbuscrash.usa

Crew
Captain Edward States, US
First Officer Sten Molin, US
Deborah Fontakis, US
Barbara Giannasca, US
Wilmer Gonzalez, US
Joseph Lopes, US
Michele Mills, US
Carol Palm, US
William Valdespino, US

Passengers
Manuel Abreu, Dominican Republic
Juana Abreu, US
Candida Rosa Acosta, US
Oneida Acosta De Araujo, US
Rosa Alcantara, US
Selene Alcantara, Dominican Republic
Danny Alcantara Taveras, Dominican Republic
Hipolito Algarroba, US
Ubencia Algarroba, US
Josefina Allende, US
Ramon Almanzar, US
Rosa Almanzar, Dominican Republic
Juan Almonte, Dominican Republic
Luz Alvarado, Dominican Republic
Rafael Alvarez, US
Marina Aponte, US
Regina Arroyo Molina, US
Jovanny Baez, Dominican Republic
Noemi Batista, US
Lialette (Lie-A-Lot?) Batista, US
Tito Bautista, Dominican Republic
Baudilio Bautista, US
Xiomara Betances, Dominican Republic
Dennis Blair, US
Jose Bonilla, US
Wilberto Brito, US
Pedro Brito Rodriguez, US
Angela (Maria) Burdier, Dominican Republic
Martina Burdier De Rodriguez, US
Maria Burdier Tapia, Dominican Republic
Robert Cabrera, Dominican Republic
Consesora Calaff, US
Ramon Calderon, US
Petronila Capellan, US
Genimiz Carty, US
Juana Castillo, US
Santana Castillo Fernandez, US
Sobeira Cedeno, US
Angel Celestino, US
Christina Charles, US
David (Ching) Chen, Taiwan
Victor Cornelio, Dominican Republic
Juan Coronado, US
Gladys Coronado, US
Danilo Corporan (Corporate/Corporation?), Dominican Republic
Eduarda Corporan (Corporate/Corporation?), US
Janet Corporan )Corporate/Corporation?) (infant)
Gisela Cuello, US
Indira Cuevas, US
Federico de la Asuncion, US
Karla de la Cruz, US
Clara de la Cruz, US
Leonardo de la Cruz, US
Leonte de la Cruz, US
Marino de la Cruz, Dominican Republic
Angela de la Cruz, Dominican Republic
Glen de la Cruz, US
Maria de la Cruz, US
Alexandra de la Cruz, US
Juan de la Cruz, US
Rafael de la Cruz, US
Alcibiades de la Cruz, US
Ramona de Leon Corporan, US
Nieves de los Santos, Dominican Republic
Guadalupe del Rosario De Peralta, US
Eustaquio Delarosa, US
Reynida Delgado, Dominican Republic
Patricia Demarchena, Dominican Republic
Lorenzo Despradel, US
Robert Despradel, US
Roberto Despradel (infant)
Julia Diaz
Victor Diaz, US
Francisco Diaz, Dominican Republic
Luz Diaz, US
Maria Diaz, Dominican Republic
Alejandro Diaz, US
Eduvige Diaz Pachano De Bright, Dominican Republic
D Angelo Dilone, US
Julia Dominguez, US
Adriano Espino, Dominican Republic
Florentine Estrella, US
Miguelina Fabre, US
Marra Filanovsky, US
Ilya Filanovsky, US
Lasar Flores, US
Mariana Flores, US
Lasar (Isaiah) Flores, US
Anthony (Antonio) Forteza, US
Nalda Galva de Reynoso, Dominican Republic
Milagros Garcia Perez, US
Eduardo George, US
Milton George, US
Felix Gervacio, US
Jose Gomez Contrera, US
Pedro Gonzalez, Dominican Republic
Carmen Gonzalez, US
Regina Gonzalez, US
Sylvie Greleau, Great Britain (see note below)
Altagracia Guerrero, US
Dariana Guerrero, US
Diomarys Guerrero, US
Glenda Guzman, US
Johnny Guzman, US
Nicolasa Guzman De Mercedes, Dominican Republic
Miguel Guzman Jr, US
Marion Hartigan, US
Teofilo Hernandez, Dominican Republic
Juan Hernandez, Dominican Republic
Carla Hernandez, US
Joanny Hernandez, US
Jean Heuze, France
Yohanly Hidalgo, US
Dario Hidalgo, US
Alexander Hodge, US
Joseph Huber, US
Frances Huber, US
Sarah Huertas, US
Jose Vicente Infante, US
Yamil Jerez, US
Humberto Jimenez, Dominican Republic
Yesica Jimenez, Dominican Republic
Jayke Jimenez (infant)
Roberto Jimenez Perez, US
Ernestina Jiminian, US
Jose La[bfontaine, Dominican Republic
Melvin Landsman, US
Elaine Landsman, US
Luz Maria Lendof, Dominican Republic
Marcelina Liriano Guerrero, US
Mercedes Lopez, US
Emily Lopez, US
Argentina Lopez, US
Roberto Lopez Jr, US
Jose Lora, US
Karl Lora, US
Mercedes Luciano De Veloz, US
Maricio Made, Dominican Republic
Ana Made, Dominican Republic
Victor Marcano, US
Digna Marte, Dominican Republic
German Martinez, Dominican Republic
Aurora Martinez, US
Yanelly Martinez, US
Angel Martinez, US
Sura Martinez, US
Juan Martinez, Dominican Republic
Ibelise Martinez De Goris, Dominican Republic
Nieve Mason, Dominican Republic
Virgilia Mateo, US
Nuris Matias, US
Dominga Matias, Dominican Republic
Orlando Matos Perez, US
Hilda Mayol, US
Carmen Medina, Dominican Republic
Wilfrido Medrano, US
Ashot Melikjanian, US
Grace Mena, US
Wilton Mendez, US
Daisy Montalvo, US
Diane Monte, US
Remedios Montilla, Dominican Republic
Antonia Morales, US
Luis Morales, US
Efrain Mota, US
Luis Munoz, US
Alen Noboa, US
Victoria Nova Rivera, US
Ana Nunez
Fatima Nunez, Dominican Republic
Aaliya Nunez Reynoso (infant), US
Siegried Objio, US
Rosanna Ogando, Dominican Republic
Ramon Oviedo Germoso, US
Angel Paradis, US
Carmen Pena, Dominican Republic
Katherine Pena, US
Michael Pena, US
Magnolia Pena Nadir, US
Yelisa Peralta, Dominican Republic
Ramon Peralta, Dominican Republic
Augusto Peralta, US
Fernando Perez, US
Carmen Perez, Dominican Republic
Jose Perez, Dominican Republic
Maria Perez Mendez, Dominican Republic
Luis Perreaux, US
Jean Phanord, Haiti
Luis Pichardo, Dominican Republic
Ramona Pimentel, Dominican Republic
Nurys Polanco, US
Ercilia Polanco, US
Reyna Prospero, US
Joseph Ramirez, US
Victor Ramirez, Dominican Republic
Jose Ramirez, Dominican Republic
Rafael Ravelo, Dominican Republic
Eleuteria Reid-Hay, US
Agapito Reyes, Dominican Republic
Roberto Reyes, US
Norbeto Rivera, US
Julio Rodriguez, US
Ruben Rodriguez, US
Julia Rodriguez, US
Maria Rodriguez, US
Lucia Rodriguez Almonte, US
Juana Rojas Javier, Dominican Republic
Mercedes Roman, US
Whilman Rosa, US
Angel Rosa, US
Jose Rosa Toledo, Dominican Republic
Danilo Rosario Castillo, Dominican Republic
Rosa Ruiz, US
Johanna Sanchez, US
Gilbert Sanchez (infant)
Felix Sanchez, US
Luis Sanchez, US
Jose Sanchez, US
Elvis Sanchez, US
Timo Santala, US
Iris Magali Santana, Dominican Republic
Jose Siri, US
Imelda Solis, US
Daria Soriano De Batista, Dominican Republic
Asencion Sosa, US
Franklin Soto, US
Balbina Soto De Rodriguez, US
Angela Suazo Perez, US
Lina Tabar, Dominican Republic
Milagros Tabar, Dominican Republic
Maria Tatis, US
Jose Tatis Minaya, Dominican Republic
Guadalupe Taveras, US
Ivelisse Taveras, Dominican Republic
Adaline Tejeda, US
Evelyn Tolentino, US
Po Tseng, Taiwan
Feliciano Valera Sierra, US
Maximo Valerio, Dominican Republic
Norma Valoy, US
Maria Vargas, US
Ilan Vaserman, Israel
Zeneida Vega, Dominican Republic
Carlos Veloz, US
Braudilio Veloz, US
Gloria Ventin, US
Cristopher Ventin, US
Maria Del Carmen Ventura, Dominican Republic
Nicola Villella, US
Kathleen Williams, US
Cesar Zabala, US

=====================

Give me a break -- this is just another computerized vicsim list.

brianv - October 10, 2010 10:50 PM (GMT)
Ha, I hadn't spotted all the holy schmolies before, but I did spot the "phonebook" list. Musn't forget the old "one Israeli" slip and slide!

SimonJCP - October 11, 2010 12:47 AM (GMT)
There are conflicting casualty figures, as usual:

Wikipedia: 265 Victims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587

CBS: "At Least" 265 Killed (In 2002!)
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/plane_crashe...ource_time.html

TIME: 262 Victims
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...,184463,00.html

New Zealand Herald: 260 Victims
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/artic...objectid=228170

Rudy Giuliani: 255 Victims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbSzsXuVQ2E

Jewish News: 266 Victims
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/011130/belle.shtml

The authoritative figure, however? 265.

The total amount of passengers on board Flight 11, Flight 175, Flight 77, and Flight 93 was officially 266.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/plane_crashe...ource_time.html

Sheer Coincidence?

simonshack - October 11, 2010 01:32 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (SimonJCP @ Oct 11 2010, 12:47 AM)

The authoritative figure, however? 265.

The total amount of passengers on board Flight 11, Flight 175, Flight 77, and Flight 93 was officially 266.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/plane_crashe...ource_time.html

Sheer Coincidence?


Well, SimonJCP

The "265" (not "266") total casualty figure (for the 9/11 passengers) was actually the most 'authoritative' for quite a while in many news reports:

265 people killed on four planes; 232 passengers, 25 flight attendants, 8 pilots. (Note that this total includes the 19 hijackers, who reportedly boarded the planes as passengers.)
http://www.fact-index.com/c/ca/casualties_...st_attacks.html

As of October 29, 2003, 2,995 people were presumed dead as a result of all four September 11 attacks. This includes the casualties at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, on the airplanes and the hijackers. 265 people killed on four planes; 232 passengers, 25 flight attendants, 8 pilots.
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encycloped...Victim_legends/

The fatalities were in the thousands: 265 on the four planes; 2,595, including 343 '' (reported by CBS News ). October 30, 2003

The casualties were in the thousands: 265 on the planes;....
http://mathdaily.com/lessons/September_11_terrorist_attacks

*******************************************************************


In fact, that "265" figure seems to be a pretty 'popular' one. At 9:30PM on September 11, it was the estimated figure of dead firefighters !
9:30 pm - New York fire officials confirmed that at least 265 firefighters who had responded to the World Trade Center had been killed.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/blattack0911.htm

Oh, right: so, at 9:30 PM the NYFD firehouses still had not made a proper count of their "lost heroes" - who eventually turned out to be "343"?????
Gimme a flaming break! :rolleyes:

SimonJCP - October 11, 2010 02:25 AM (GMT)
CNN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3bJYzLRZ7k

The reporter notes that a witness stated that the right side engine was on fire. The witness who is on the phone at this point, however, maintains that it was definitely the left side.

At 4:19, the anchor notes that each of the witness saw the attack "somewhat differently".

WNBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hzc7W0c6Kw&feature=related

At 4:56, the entire scene turns dark blue and then turns back to normal.

At 5:44, we're treated to a painfully obvious actor. He excitedly goes on until 6:31, claiming to have seen everything -- including people inside the plane!






SimonJCP - October 11, 2010 03:15 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (simonshack @ Oct 11 2010, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (SimonJCP @ Oct 11 2010, 12:47 AM)

The authoritative figure, however? 265.

The total amount of passengers on board Flight 11, Flight 175, Flight 77, and Flight 93 was officially 266.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/plane_crashe...ource_time.html

Sheer Coincidence?


Well, SimonJCP

The "265" (not "266") total casualty figure (for the 9/11 passengers) was actually the most 'authoritative' for quite a while in many news reports:

265 people killed on four planes; 232 passengers, 25 flight attendants, 8 pilots. (Note that this total includes the 19 hijackers, who reportedly boarded the planes as passengers.)
http://www.fact-index.com/c/ca/casualties_...st_attacks.html

As of October 29, 2003, 2,995 people were presumed dead as a result of all four September 11 attacks. This includes the casualties at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, on the airplanes and the hijackers. 265 people killed on four planes; 232 passengers, 25 flight attendants, 8 pilots.
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encycloped...Victim_legends/

The fatalities were in the thousands: 265 on the four planes; 2,595, including 343 '' (reported by CBS News ). October 30, 2003

The casualties were in the thousands: 265 on the planes;....
http://mathdaily.com/lessons/September_11_terrorist_attacks

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In fact, that "265" figure seems to be a pretty 'popular' one. At 9:30PM on September 11, it was the estimated figure of dead firefighters !
9:30 pm - New York fire officials confirmed that at least 265 firefighters who had responded to the World Trade Center had been killed.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/blattack0911.htm

Oh, right: so, at 9:30 PM the NYFD firehouses still had not made a proper count of their "lost heroes" - who eventually turned out to be "343"?????
Gimme a flaming break! :rolleyes:


NICE CATCH, SIMON!

So:
The widely-reported figure of casualties on all four 9/11 flights? 265.
The initial figure of "firefighter" casualties? 265.
The official casualties figure of the Flight 587 crash? 265.

Wow.

And it's ludicrous that the FDNY would have given such an "off" figure. We've been repeatedly told about how "tight" the FDNY is.



simonshack - October 11, 2010 01:45 PM (GMT)
*

FLIGHT 587 CRASH SITE (one of several)

The airliner apparently broke up mid-air in several pieces - thus 'explaining' the various house fires in the Queens FDNY neighborhood.
This digital scenery with the little white house should be where one of the engines smashed on the ground:

Artist's impression of engine crash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lIzyUWAG3U (at 0:17)
user posted imageuser posted image

CNN shot of real location
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3bJYzLRZ7k (at 1:33)
user posted imageuser posted image

As should be evident to any observer, the artist appears to have used the very same CNN shot (at virtually same angle/perspective/framing) to construct his digital reconstruction/animation. Call me a 'paranoid conspiracy nut' - but I can't help feeling something's fishy about this. Oh well - of course - this was the view CNN showed on
TV so the artist naturally just grabbed that to compose his 3D animation. Right...silly me...Duh - WHY do I see sinister things everywhere? :P

But let's forget the 3D animation for a minute and look at the 'real' CNN scenery images. On the top of my head, I would like to submit the following observations:

1- No fire seems to have raged here at all; the white house is still white and the only "signs of firefighting" here are the fire hose and some water spilled on the tarmac.

2- The "Airbus jumbo engine" looks like a hollow, totally uncharred, half-cylinder and does not appear to have made any crater in the ground as it "plunged from a height of 28.000 feet" - as stated officially. It really looks like a heap of junk unloaded from a truck. If it were a real Airbus engine, why does it seem that roughly half of the engine is missing? When and how did it split in 2 pieces and where is that missing half? Did it break off on impact and bounce behind the white house? :huh:

idschmyd - October 11, 2010 02:36 PM (GMT)
Supreme work, guys. From 'not sure' to 'busted!' in 60 hours. The full details of the scam and its workings are yet to be known, and maybe some unfortunate got hurt on the day, but I don't see need to respect the passengers anymore!

simonshack - October 11, 2010 03:40 PM (GMT)

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I just had to screencap this ad !

user posted image

corsarino - October 11, 2010 03:42 PM (GMT)
I have seen thousands of formation of aircrafts flying and taking off together or one bye one without problems.

The similar little problem occurs when a ship follows another ship.

No a big problem.

It is impossible to crash an Airbus for a wake vortex.


idschmyd - October 11, 2010 03:56 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (simonshack @ Oct 11 2010, 04:40 PM)
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:
I just had to screencap this ad !

user posted image

Thankfully, in NY, if you're in an aviation disaster you're probably not real.

'Warn'? Does that mean I've no red cards as yet, or a full house?

Or does that say 'warm'??

Terence.drew - October 11, 2010 07:00 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (simonshack @ Oct 11 2010, 02:45 PM)

user posted imageuser posted image



The engine size doesn't seem to fit with that of real A300 Airbus Engine pictured below...it looks smaller


user posted image

There is also a '7' written large on the upside of what is supposed to be the engine cowling in the picture with the man squatting. I have seen logos painted onto engines but not large numbers - except on test flights where the aircraft model is written a few times on the fuselage..

like the BOEING '7'67 below

user posted image

AA dont seem to write anything on their engine cowlings you can see both sides of the engine in this pic.

user posted image

fbenario - October 12, 2010 12:51 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Terence.drew @ Oct 11 2010, 03:00 PM)
QUOTE (simonshack @ Oct 11 2010, 02:45 PM)

user posted image



These images show the broken cladding, or outside covering, of an engine, with none of the 'insides' around. It is my understanding (although I'm not a materials engineer) that plane engines are made of titanium for one main reason - so they don't break apart!

This cladding would not likely separate in layers from the engine's insides, if it were made of titanium.

(I'm just thinking out loud, and don't have any citations. Sorry.)

idschmyd - October 12, 2010 01:05 AM (GMT)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmVUok05E4

Small point, but at 6:55 narrator says ‘The house starts to shake’, scene shows ornaments wobbling and teetering on a shelf, and then they fall. WTF? Check out vid linked by reel.deal of planes flying in low over Hong Kong en route to Kai Tak: people living under that presumably glued their ornaments down. An aircraft breaking up in midair with engines detached(!) would be quieter than one flying safely at low altitude, wouldn't it?

reel.deal - October 12, 2010 03:16 AM (GMT)
lazy-ass unimaginative/subtly cryptic 9/11 hollywood perps lifted the queens 'jet engine lands on house' narrative
straight out of ending to 'donnie darko' ?!?, which came out in, yes... september '01...

Donnie Darko - Full Ending

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK66-K9ROMM


Release

"The limited release of the film occurred during the month after the September 11 attacks. It was subsequently held back
for almost a year for international release, where it garnered more favorable reviews.[citation needed] From this point,
a large cult following for the movie began. Its DVD release gained an increased American audience for the film."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnie_Darko

weird...

ATTC - October 27, 2010 03:32 AM (GMT)
You guys are true heroes and amazing truth sleuths. The truth really is stranger than fiction. Amazing how you guys exposed that list of names with the same Vicsim patterns, the same reoccurence of the number 265, even among the list of firefighters on 9/11, and among plane victims or vicsims I should say

And of course the digital manipulation and dubious debris.


You guys basically expose these crooks in your sleep.


And this topic has gone from completely unrelated to even further proof of manipulation of these arrogant pricks





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