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Title: Resucitating a Franz older post (way older)


amalgam - May 1, 2006 12:40 PM (GMT)
Hey you guys,

I have not been here for a while, but I was not very much involved in the trade either so I was absent. I got this old post made by my virtual friend Franz, and I brought it here with my addition and see if I can get the latest on this. It is about a professionally homemade water separator that Franz engeneered. My question to you and of course to you Franz, is what about submerging your design in a water container for efective and quick cooling of the air?

Old post from Hobarts Forum

Alfredo

JT Metalworks - May 1, 2006 05:33 PM (GMT)
Funny, you said you found everything - screw it, I'll just quote ya.

"I came to the forum happy as always because you guys are my mentors and I always find everything that I need here." :Amalgam SFT

http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6266

I guess you found everything there but the needed info on Franz's idea eh?

This reminds me of people who come here, steal my pics and ideas, then post them on other forums and insult me by saying they didn't think "I" was smart enough to come up with them.

amalgam - May 1, 2006 06:40 PM (GMT)
JT, JT, JT

First of all, if you find all my post in every single forum I am in (as you took the time to find the SFT one) you will find that I am very polite, and thankful to all the people who has helped me along the way. I do not weld for a living; I am a metal sculptor that is why I am not a regular in welding forums. I have been following Franz since the Hobart forum and you can ask him if you want. Indeed, I have email him directly and he has helped me a lot. The last few threads that I posted in this forum were either unanswered or took forever to get an answer. So, I usually go to the forum that is visited more often and threads are answered sooner. Now, I just got my air compressor and browsing for an idea on how to eliminate water I found the one from Franz and I thought that it is time to bother the old guy again. By the way, if you get this link Metal Art Forumyou will see that the idea is not exclusive from Franz. I just want to talk to the people who know and that is it. So, and allow me to be a little bit harsh here. I do not like to talk to the clowns but to the owner of the circus. So, get your reply out of the way and let Franz to talk by himself.

Thank you

Alfredo

Franz© - May 1, 2006 09:18 PM (GMT)
Now you young bucks don't need to get yer shorts pulled all up the carck of yer a$$es here. Alfredo knows damn well I've spent a lot of time helpin him, both on and off the boards.
Seems like I spent a lot of time on his forge & keepin him from wearing the hotbox on his pantleg. I also got him sorted out on his fume exhauster.
If he feels he posted something here and had to wait for me to reply, I might have to go back and do a bit of looking, but it sure don't seem to me he ever had to wait longer than it took me to find the answer and type the reply. I don't have all the answers stuck in the front of my head, so from time to time, I gotta go find one for somebody.

To that end Alfredo, NO, settin the seperator (Franzinator) in a bucket of water will only be a short time solution. The hot air giving off heat to the inside wall of the seperator will heat the bucket of water up fairly quick. Unfortunately, once the water in the bucket gets above room temperature, probably 90 in your area, the seperator will quit functioning with any efficiency.

If you go with water cooling, you need to either wind a coil around the colum, or build a water jacket that at least covers the colum below the air inlet. There is one hell of a lot of heat in compressed air coming from the compressor, and the Franzinator functions by cooling that air quickly.

Now, I ain't even gonna bother looking at the date on Charlie's post on that metal site for the date, cause I don't give a damn if he copied my idea or not. If he did, he damn well probably did it right, cause he's the kind of mechanic who does things right, unlike the bullsnot artists on ShytFloorTalk.

amalgam - May 1, 2006 11:12 PM (GMT)
Franz,
Franz,
Once again thank you for your help. As a matter of fact you never turned me down and when you did I immediately understood that the old master wanted the pupil to get down and dirty so he could understand better. After all, you are the type of teacher that is in extinction nowadays. Indeed, you are a master. This time around I have noticed that this forum is getting more robust and that makes me happy. I have good virtual masters/friends in every single forum and I like that. Now, back to the Franzinator, Is it not the water jacket will get hot also for the heat inside the Franzinator’s chamber? What about making a copper coil from the compressor to the tank and submerge it inside a water tank of regular proportions so there is water enough to stay cool? My compressor has a 80gal tank and will handle one tool at a time with only one operator, so the number of times that the compressor will blow air through the copper coil is minimum. IS your answer still no?

I hope you are not mad at me as :D

Franz© - May 2, 2006 03:23 AM (GMT)
Alfredo, what you are not recognizing is that there are multiple things happening inside the Franzinator all at the same time.
There is a minimal amount of cooling caused by the airstream itself, as it expands from the half inch pipe to the 2" pipe. We get a little cooling from the process of refridgeration by expansion, but not enough to do much work.

The second effect is the hot air impacts the cold wall of the colum. As long as the wall is colder than the compressed air stream, there will be condensation of the water held in the airstream as vapor. That water then becomes liquid on the inside wall, and falls to the bottom of the colum.

Third, since the air is first directed down as it enters the colum, it must reverse direction inthe bottom of the colum to get out the top. Ther change of direction also drops some water out of the air. Finally, before the air can get out the top, it has to pass along the upper walls of the colum. These walls too are cold, in comparison to the airstream, so more water can be condensed on the walls.

Now, your idea of a copper coil in a tank of cold water will have some of the same effect. It will also have liquid water inside of it as the water drops out of the airstream. and that water has to go someplace. If the coil goes from the compressor to the receiver, the water will have to go to the receiver, being pushed along the coil by cold air. Some of that water will be picked back up by the airstream in the same manner as wind picks up water from a field after a rain. Then, you still have the water in the receiver, where you really didn't want it to begin with.

A franzinator between the compressor and the receiver leaves the water in the sump of the colum, in a very confined area, with a small surface area for the wind effect to work on. If you water cool the colum on the Franzinator, you must use flowing water to carry the heat away. Standing water in a jacket would only evaporate off, probably fairly quickly in your neighborhood, given the ambient temperature.

How big the receiver of your compressor is really doesn't have a lot of relevence to this question. What are you trying to accomplish with this building project? Most air tools really don't require dry air, especially if you are lubricating the tool.

JT Metalworks - May 2, 2006 04:13 AM (GMT)
Actually, that was the last post you made on SFT. I was looking for info on what you were needing the dry air for - like a plasma cutter. Wondering if maybe there was some other underlying issue to be dealt with? And that's what I came up with on my first shot. :rolleyes:

amalgam - May 2, 2006 12:32 PM (GMT)
Franz,
I will media blast and apply clear coats to my pieces. As far as I know, this two procedures need very dry air. I have also seen someone installing the Franzinator after the tank; is that another way to go?

Alfredo

Franz© - May 2, 2006 04:35 PM (GMT)
Alfredo
The nature of the beast is that it will seperate maximum water from the air where you can cause the most change in temperature. Hot air holds more water than cold air, that's one of the nonrepealable laws of physics.

That said, the Franzinator works best between the compressor and the receiver, because the air coming from the compressor is hottest, and it can be cooled suddenly as it passes thru the colum.

It also has some efficiency when installed just prior to the point of use of the compressed air, but not as much as when between the compressor and receiver. In my system I have both. I also probably have less moisture to deal with by the nature of where you live and where I live.

Blasting will work with wet air, but you'll loose some efficiency. Any painting operation needs the cleanest air you can supply.

amalgam - May 2, 2006 05:01 PM (GMT)
Got ya!!! Having said that, I will do as you did. One Franzinator between the compressor and the tank and the other between the tank and my regulator.

Would you mind giving me the dimmensions of your chamber?

Thank you

Alfredo

Franz© - May 2, 2006 05:07 PM (GMT)
The primary units are 2" diameter pipe, 37" long. The air enters 19" from the bottom.
DON'T forget, there is an elbow inside that turns the air down when it enters the colum.

egon - May 5, 2006 10:56 AM (GMT)
Recalling from a past life.

air compressor - aftercooler - water seperator - desicant type regenerating dryer - receiver.

Suggest putting a regenerating desicant dryer after Franz's seperator. There are some reasonably priced ones on the market. Largest receiver possible with auto drain valve on the bottom and regular blowdowns.

Note: There were two items I would run for in the plant. Gas alarm or low air pressure! :D

And a really fun job at -40C was wrapping steam hozes around a frozen air line and pumping in methanol to twaw things out! :D

Egon :D




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