This is a discussion that I hope everyone will take part in, explaining how they view drudgery and what comparisons they can make to the real world with it. Also, feel free to state if you think drudgery should be slightly different from how it is usually viewed.

I think having discussions about the roles of the Pernese will be an important addition to the rps that we do and broaden our perspective on Pern as a whole, as well as seeing if we are all on the same page in our views. So yes, post! I'm eager to see everyone's views on this subject =D

I'd HATE to say that this is mandatory, but I will say that you will be greatly rewarded in the long run for your participation in these discussions.

McCaffrey describes drudgery in a realistic way, namely that drudges are people who lacked the intelligence or ability to work in any Hall, or who had come from families so hard off that they were forced to take a low status job. And any Weyr or Hall would fail without the efforts of drudges, so they play a significant role in the maintenance of Pern. Just as in real life, there are those who would treat drudges with disrespect because of their low status. While rping, I intend on treating them as similarly as those in the books did, to keep everything as canon as possible, especially since the Weyrs are known for being kinder places to live and work.

I never gave it too much thought before. But they seem like servants of a type to me. I agree with Wolfie in the respect that they are either unable to work other jobs, or simply were so hard off that they had to take the job. People look down on them, take advantage of them. They definitely aren't treated nicely by some. However, some of the drudges, if given chance, could possibly rise to better, higher jobs. I don't see that in the books, but it could be tried here, I suppose.

Hmm....I always assumed the same as Shade and Wolfie. Drudges were basically people who were more simple-minded or came from hard hit families. That, or they came from a family with a history of drudges.

I sort of got the idea that drudges were basically servants, though as mentioned before, there could be a family history. Perhaps the ones with higher jobs would be like butlers and maids?

They're most likely abused or looked down upon more often than not, I'm guessing. Rank is specified in the Pern books, with dragonriders, Lord Holders and all that jargon. Though I expect that Weyrs may treat them with more kindness, since dragonriders just always seemed like the more empathetic type. They'd have to have some level of empathy to Impress a dragon, eh?

I'm tempted to make a drudge now...though what to do with her/him?

Drudges are a servent of sort... but with more freedom than such. They do the grunge work like cooking, cleaning, etc. that the other holders/Weyrfolk don't normally do if there are those like drudges to do them. A lot of drudges are viewed as simple-minded in the books (from the impression I got anyway) but a lot of them are aslo not. You have to have some sort fo authority within the drudge life just like anywhere else and so there generally has to be someone who is dependent and adept enough to over-see the workings of that status.

And I don't think that they are looked down upon as much as Bee has stated. Of course, there are always going to be people arrogant enough to act that way, but I think most people don't have quite that sort of mind-set towards them, at least not so definate. They are probably more ignored and regarded merely as a presence in the background, and not so mistreated as abused unless they are in a particularly bad setting.

I pretty much agree with what everyone has said so far, but I also think that some people probably chose to become drudges, just like now, some people CHOOSE to work at convenience stores and restaurants and everything just because they don't want to have to go through all the extensive training that it would take to have another profession.

But yeah, generally I view things in levels, so by my way of thinking, drudges are the lowest-level because certain circumstances, like being mentally deficient in some way, or a bad situation usually put them there.

So... yes. Levels. : D

I see it as a multitude of things; basically the catch-all for all the people who can't find a job elsewhere. This might even mean that they are bright and interesting people. Then again, they usually go up in rank if they are exceptional, but I think the term 'drudge' is so ambiguous. THere have to be different kinds of drudges, like ones that can perform certain tasks and knows how to clean certain things, etc. I'd imagine drudgery has a hierarchy all in itself.

Cooks are a completely different thing though. You have to have rank to cook. You might not need rank to peel potatoes, but the actual cooking is usually done by cooks and apprentices. I think that because they are usually on such a level that they work kind of in the backgrounds (like the people at a hotel. lol) that they are all grouped into this single 'drudgery' category. Totally tired of these characters rising from aggreived drudgery lives though. I don't think drudgery would always be that bad unless you truly are a little stupid or physically disabled, etc.

So, the art of cooking itself is out, so drudges would.. serve food, clean hallways, mop, sweep, wash dishes, clean quarters, wash clothes... What other jobs would drudges have? I'm trying to flesh out the life of a drudge and different levels of 'drudgery'

Well, concievably drudges would run the gamut of possibilties. On one hand we have characters like Camo who did suffer from mental retardation, but there were also characters like Lessa (even if she was only a drudge as a disguise and planned to kill Fax). I'd say a lot more fell in the middle. I wouldn't say that they were all looked down upon, or that they were all less than others. I do see them doing mostly carry work, being unthought of by those in positions of power, and having to do the grungy jobs, but at the same time they would also be doing jobs such as changing the glows, preparing chambers, cleaning rooms, etc. While these tasks are not as dirty (and you certainly wouldn't want a filthy person cleaning the Lord's Rooms) they are still tasks of drudgery. Drudgery is described as hard, monotonous, routine work, so anyone who did that sort of work I guess could be described as a drudge.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are levels of drudge, although I can't recall Anne McCaffery ever going into them. Concievably there must be those over the drudges, though they may positions filled by the Lord Holder's sons or others. These overseers may, however, be elevated drudges with skills in management. I can't remember exactly, but I seem to want to place Silvina from the Harper Hall trilogy in this group (if someone has access to the books and would like to correct me, it's more than welcome).

I don't know if people are forced into the jobs of drudges. The only person whose history and explanation for being a drudge seems to my mind to be Camo, but I don't know if he is strictly representative. Drudges, however, don't seem to be people who stand out, so perhaps they are the untalented, the mentally retarded, or the disabled.

One final note, is there a distinction between drudges and those who cook, or tend to the runners, or serve food? Or are all of these condensed into the term, drudge? I think that each of these would require different skills and different training.

There is a distinction between cooks because cooking is an art form and requires skill.

General handlings of beasts require skill also for the most part, and most apprentices of these skills would be caring for the beasts for the most part since this is how they learn. For the dogs that turn spits and general beasts of the Hold/Weyr though, drudges might make sure they are fed and their kennels are cleaned if these beasts don't require much training.

I can't remember is Silvina was much of a drudgy type. I think she was more like an overseer of general things going on, something like a headwoman. There were in fact higher drudges that maintained and managed drudgely duties.

Lessa though, was no true drudge, but disguised. I suppose in a way she was, but she was never meant to be one because she was in fact of royal blood, blah blah blah..

but I want to know the lives of the real drudges, the ones who are in the situation they are in not because of odd circumstances but because that's how life is. I'd think that within drudgery would also be family structures. I hardly think it's just a bunch of hulking people in rags doing menial tasks.

When you think of drudge families, what do you imagine? What do you imagine the daily life of a drudge to be like in a Hold? A Weyr?

I agree that drudges were largely those with no craft skill, or those hit by hard times. However, and I am not sure if Ann McCaffery ever played with this, a woman with children that she wanted to become riders might have a better chance of giving them the opportunity by living in the weyr. I think some of those who were drudges were probably those who sought the protection of the weyr, needed their livlihoods ensured, or wanted an opportunity to rise beyond their station by becoming a rider. If I was living in Pern and wanted to increase my chances of being Searched I would definately become a drudge.

In terms of drudges in the Weyr, I can't say much for certain in modern times. I know that originally (ie from (The Chronicles of Pern: First Fall) they were people who left Fort Hold to go to Fort Weyr simply so that they could get out of the crowding at Fort and to let the dragonriders concentrate on taking care of their dragons, something that already took up all of their time anyways. So in that concept I see them as good minded people willing to work to help others who aren't that badly off. Then again, this would naturally evolve over the thousands of years it would take to bring us to the time of Kharasi.

That's one thing I don't really like about the whole drudges thing, it doesn't really seem to jive so much with the view of Pern I usually have. With the exception of Thread, Pern seems like a pretty damn good place to live, certainly better than earth. All the charcters we really concern ourselves with seem to have it good. Sure the dragonriders have it better, (having a dragon for one, but there's also better food and better ability to travel, etc.)

I suppose the idea of a deprived drudge in rags fits in better with some of the newer books, particularly with the most recent book dealing with the Holdless and stealing from a mining camp, but at the same time, I dunno.

My view on drudges, for a long time, has been that they're mentally retarded Pernese who were unintelligent to the point that they weren't /able/ to get another job.

Then the thought occurred to me in the past 6 months... You know, I'm sure there aren't really that many mentally disabled Pernese on the planet. Certainly there are some [reference Camo], but if each hall and weyr and hold has drudges.... I don't think my previous theory holds up very well.

I've come to the conclusion that drudging is a job, like craftmen do, only without a required skill. Like the safety net that can make the difference between even the meanest holder, and the holdless.

As far as infrastructure, I think that to an extent if a wife and husband are both drudges, and they have children, then their children will also be drudges, likely. Not only is it a relatively simple job, but everybody /wants/ drudges, because it means that they don't have to do the work.

And as for heirarchy, I think generally all drudges are on the same level. There may be a few in charge of others, if any. The warders play a large role in their organization, I think, and the infrastructure through the Hold and Hall and Weyr as usual, but that's generally it. Cooks are, of course, able to command drudges too.